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-1

Annelise

Torah says to be careful only to worship God. I don't think the first worshipers of Yeshua were careful enough to check for 100% sure that he wasn't created. We don't even hear about their decision process or clear proclamation of such an intense, serious claim.

A lot of your proofs were just citing things that Yeshua is recorded to've said. They aren't very clear either. Anyone could declare prophetically that someone's sins are forgiven.

If there is even a tiny doubt you might be worshiping a created entity, run away. Faith in God is different from faith in an incarnation claim, which has to be tested rigorously in faith and loyalty to God.

Torah gives no test or instruction on the future coming of something so important to decide about properly. No warning not to miss moshiach's 'first coming' or else suddenly have no access to the path to God that had always been laid out in grace.
+2

William Ringer

The subject of forgiveness through shedding blood is not so simple (hence debates) but from God's viewpoint it is not complicated. We need to see it from God's point of view. He created mankind to be an expression of himself - that is still true although man through Adam failed. We are born biologically, and we will surely die (body, soul, and Spirit for ever). While living in the flesh we have a dead Spirit which needs to be regenerated - born again from above. However, we can be born again, but not from the mother's womb, but Spiritually from God (as a child of God) and so we can live for ever. This is a gift from God - it cannot be earned by good works or keeping Laws which will always be broken - it is by His Grace (free gift). However, the matter of Sin first has to be dealt with for all time. God himself had to do that personally out of His mercy. So He came to earth, (Emanuel God with us) to suffer and to pay with His blood and his humanity - His life - Life is in the Blood.
+2

William Ringer

(cont) When God the father, through His power, resurrected His Son, Sin was defeated - all of it, for all time. Now, for all who BELIEVE in this, and in HIM, Sin is nullified and has no effect. Man is reconciled to God, and becomes a Son of God through whom God can express Himself as planned. Even though all sin has been dealt with, it is not so for those who do not believe it, and they remain in Spiritual death - for ever. We need to distinguish between the WORK of the Cross, which was God's work; and the WAY of the cross which is our work; AFTER we have been born again of the Spirit. Our WAY is to die to self selflessly "I am crucified with Christ who lives in me" and to live for God and our neighbor. The blood sacrifices of animals in the past was a picture of the real blood sacrifice of the Messiah which was foretold and accomplished (fully for all time) by God's Son (Jesus) "this is My Son in whom I am well pleased". His resurrected Life is now granted to all believers for ever.
+2

Annelise

There are observant Jews who don't accept Christianity but have a close relationship with Hashem. While there are mitzvot that they're waiting to keep again, and also some which they are still improving in... they certainly aren't ignoring any (or any criteria for the righteous remnant) by waiting to see the messianic prophecies fulfilled before thanking God for their king-to-come.

And thank God they aren't making up commandments on top of the Torah. For sure they do say that atonement comes through tshuvah, but that is not a replacement commandment like the Yeshua claim is. It's relying on God even in a period of exile when they can't fully express penitance as He commanded, knowing that as with Daniel, God still turns and hears. It's an effort to stay very close to the details of Torah in the details of life, as a large and testimonial community. Unlike those who say that since there is no Temple everyone (even gentiles) has to be 'saved' through some new 'commandment'.
+1

Jim D

Nicely written, Annelise.

I would just add and clarify for readers that expressing penitence through sacrificial offerings is not the same as the penitence or teshuva, itself. Repentance was required first, then a sacrifice could be offered as an outward sign of it and a payment to God as restitution. This is why the Prophets emphasized that God didn't care for sacrifices when His people were not being obedient. But a blood sacrifice was never an absolute requirement by which a person received forgiveness of sin from God. The point was for a person to offer up something of value as a sacrifice, and the value of the sacrifice was relative to the person's financial ability. [cont...]
+1

Jim D

[....cont.] If a man could not afford to sacrifice a bull or goat or even birds, God allowed a meal offering of fine flour. This type of sin offering -- clearly not a blood sacrifice -- was sufficient for complete atonement. Leviticus 5:11 -- 5:13: “‘If he cannot afford two turtledoves or two young pigeons, he must bring as his offering for his sin which he has committed a tenth of an ephah of choice wheat flour for a sin offering. He must not place olive oil on it and he must not put frankincense on it, because it is a sin offering. He must bring it to the priest and the priest must scoop out from it a handful as its memorial portion and offer it up in smoke on the altar on top of the other gifts of the Lord – it is a sin offering. So the priest will make atonement on his behalf for his sin which he has committed by doing one of these things, and he will be forgiven."

If a blood sacrifice was always necessary, this scripture could not and would not have been written.

Annelise

Shalom Jim,

A lot of Christians believe such non-blood atonement (as also the case for non-Jews, who don't need sacrifices by Torah) is either only possible because of Yom Kippur offerings etc., and/or only possible because of the future sacrifice 'of Yeshua'.

All Christians seem to believe in the second thought there in one way or another... and the important thing is this. The blood of bulls and goats itself is agreed by everyone NOT to be the thing that *essentially* effects forgiveness, however necessary when commanded. Everyone agrees there's something deeper. Christians think it's a 'heavenly sacrifice'; traditional Jews say God's promised forgiveness is higher than our thoughts (Isaiah 55 on repentance). But Yeshua wasn't one of the commanded offerings, nor does that system point directly to an 'ultimate sacrifice'. Missionary reasoning is always just a way of speculating on God's justice, not a direct fulfilment of the system of blood offerings in Torah.
-1

JAMES

[quote name="Annelise"]Shal om Jim,

You say, "The blood of bulls and goats itself is agreed by everyone NOT to be the thing that *essentially* effects forgiveness," but what you have ignored is the fact that BLOOD IS REQUIRED- THE BLOOD OF MESSIAH, OUR PASSOVER. It was the BLOOD that was shed to cover Adam and Eve's nakedness. It was the BLOOD that Abel offered. It was the BLOOD of the Passover on the homes of Israelis that saved the Firstborn. It is BLOOD that God required in the Leviticakl sacrifices- NOT because animal blood was efficacious in removing sins, BUT BECAUSE IT FORESHADOWED THE COMING SACRIFICE OF YESHUA AND THE SALVATION THAT WOULD COME THROUGH HIM!
+1

Annelise

Where does it say that, or how do you know to interpret 'shadows' like that?

The sin offerings are known to be pleasing to God because He commanded them for Jews to offer for unintentional sins. He gave them blood, and other things, to be set apart to do that with. It's not about speculating, it's about following what He commanded.

And we look at the repentance, in times without the Temple, in the same way (Deut 30 etc.).

He forgives in a way higher than our ways (see discussion of forgiveness in Isaiah 55). No one in the Jewish Bible was like, oh, who will pay the price of my sin? No it was just about revelation, not speculation...if He said He forgives, we accept it with awe and thankfulness, face value. The condition is that we turn back to Him and (for Jews) do the commandments given regarding offerings, or regarding what to do in a time of exile without offerings. Simple... it is near to us, to do it...
+1

Jim D

James,

I know emotions can run high over this topic, because its so central to the Christian faith.

But let me ask you this: Are you prepared to argue against God's own words in Leviticus 5:11-13? Please explain how you think it is *not true* when God says, ".....and he will be forgiven." This is God telling us that He will forgive the sinner who atones not with blood, but with a grain offering instead.

Melanie

As I recall, blood is symbolic of death but grain is for making bread, a symbol of faith. When those who have no blood to cover themselves instead offer flour, they proclaim their faith that GOD will grant some value to their gift. We can use the blood of an animal to cover ourselves and so appear dead/judged/punished or we can use the grain flour from the sheaves in which we are hiding to convince death/judgement that we are productive assets that help to support life/faith and so should be left alone/ignored.

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Melanie

Blood in the OT symbolized physical/temporal life. It was thus the shedding of that life, the occasion of death, that was required as payment for sin. As blood was the symbol of death, that which was stained with blood was perceived to have died. That is the reason for marking: to indicate that everyone that was represented by the marked thing had already died and had therefore been judged already. By covering themselves, their houses, their representations, etc. with blood, they were able to "escape" that round of judgement and its punishment of death. But sooner or later, everyone dies, so the effect of the substitute sacrifice is only temporary, limited to only that round of judgement. Thereafter when a person dies, they will be judged for whatever was not covered when judgement last came and for whatever sins were committed since then. But if they are found blameless while covered in blood, having received the punishment of death unfairly, then they will be resurrected to life.
+3

Annelise

PS to the moderator, I'm impressed that you're willing to publish comments in opposition to the link you posted; shows integrity.

Jerry

In the video "How can God become a man?" scripture was quoted where Yeshua said "I am" meaning that he was part of His Father but as a man here on earth because God Elohim was still in heaven and He cannot die. He knew that people like Catholics will try to worship him and pray to him on the croos that is why he never called himself God. Trinity is a pagan concept and Greek philosophy. He said that he was going to his Father, our God and his God. If he was God here on earth he wouldn't need help from angels or increase in knowledge when he was young. He didn't do anything on his own authority so he could forgive sins only when he was authorised by His Father. No wonder Muslims and the Jews don't accept Christian gospel. When they hear from them that God came down and died for us they think they are crazy.There is only one El Elyon (the Most High God) in heaven. Yeshua had to be the second Adam to die for his sin. God has no blood. If he was God then why was he exalted above the angels?

Dinesh

After so many explanations also ,some publish ridiculous comments when they do not understand the mystery of Christ.
To know God we have to humble ourselves. It is Him who reveals himself to humans and not the other way around . God is a spiritual being as we do. The actual "I" is my spirit and not my body. When I die I leave my body and will continue to exist.
In spirit form I will not have any blood. God came down and took the form of human to bear the punishment of the whole human kind. Without human form he cannot bear the punishment for human beings. Since he took the form of human ,he had limitations in his body(tiredness, hunger etc)and by Spirit He was God. Praise be to His Glorious name because he took the form of a servant for our sake.
To Know whether this is true or not ,better we humble ourselves and pray to Him to reveal. He is beyond our understanding. He is faithful .He revealed himself to me and hence He will reveal to you also . Jesus Loves You.
-1

Jerry

Reply to Dinesh
Most Christians have Greko-Roman thought pattern. Yeshua told us not to pray to him but to the Father. Hebrews understand that God is One "Echad". There is no two Gods. If Yeshua was god on earth than we are also gods as he said so. We are part or particles of God Elohim and we live in this body.
Shalom, Jerry
+1

Jerry

Reply to Dinesh again. It is not Scriptural to say that "God came down and died for us". Son of of God came down and lived as a man. Many Christians still believe in Greek philosophies. The mystery has been already revealed to us "Christ in you the hope of glory". There is no mystery to Hebrews who Elohim is. Western Christians are confused with the Trinity doctrine. Shalom and blessings, Jerry
+2

Paula Baxter

No, I do not believe YHWH became a man and came to Earth.
Y'shua was a man, The Son of YHWH! In what way would the Bible stories about Y'shua make sense if he were YHWH?
Why would John the Baptist have heard a voice from Heaven saying "This is my Son in whom I am greatly pleased." Why would 'the temptation of Christ' be significant if He were YHWH? How would it be miraculous that Y'shua was resurrected on the third day? I can go on and on... Finally, how would it significant when Y'shua said "No one comes to the Father except through me, The Son." In your reasoning he was saying 'No one comes to me except through me'???? I'm sorry but this is as great a mistake as believing there are three GODS! No, there is The Father, YHWH, the creator of all we know, and The Son, Y'shua, our Lord and Savior, sent by The Father to lead those who are seeking YHWH to Him! And the Holy Spirit, since YHWH is spirit, just another name for his manifestation on Earth.

Against All

1st Timothy 3:16 says that Christ was/is the physical manifestation of God.
Abraham said that God would provide Himself a sacrifice - Genesis 22:8
Christ said that He who saw Him, saw the Father - John 14:9
The Son is called The Everlasting Father in Isaiah 9:6.

God is the ever existing single source of all things.
( Colossians 1:14-20, Revelation 4:11, Proverbs 8:22-23 )

1. God can not NOT be God.
2. God can not NOT know something.
3. God can not die/stop existing.

However, God DID experience all three of the above as Y'shua Christ of Nazareth.
God created everything so that He could experience the above three things and relate to His creation,
while at the same time creating the ultimate way to demonstrate His love for His creation.
How can God judge me if He does not know what it is
like to be a human?

Melanie

Someone correct me if I'm off here, but I believe that in Hebrew, the phrase used in Isaiah 9 is "Pele-joez-el-gibbor -Abi-ad-sar-shalom" which best translates to "Wonderful in counsel is God, the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace". So basically, God (the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace) is the child's wonderful counselor.

Also, Genesis 22 says that God will provide a sacrifice FOR (not OF) Himself. And Jesus also says that no one has seen the Father and that the Father is a spirit. So... yeah.

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